The catcalls, the hissing, the blowing kisses, the marriage proposals...Gringas and Chilenas alike are tortured on the streets by the macho little boys who think women are nothing more than pieces of meat for them to oggle.
There have actually been debates though, in respected newspapers in this country on whether or not the harassment on the street is harmless. In the comment section, when El Mercurio, I believe it was, wrote an article, many women even commented on how they love the "piropos," and all women should just enjoy them while they're still getting them. Honestly, that attitude makes me feel a little sick inside. But, moving on, whether they're Ok or not isn't actually the topic I wanted to discuss.
What I wanted to talk about is when it's appropriate to respond. Emily, as many of you already know, was robbed. This has made her slightly angrier and much more untrusting of this country in general...which in turn has her yelling back insults at any guy who dares make a creepy remark in her direction. Understandable.
This is something I do on occassion as well. No, I don't respond back to every man who has the nerve to say something slimy, but depending on my mood, who I'm with, and where I am, I often feel the need to tell the guy off too. This has caused me problems a few times, like once when I retaliated to a guy making obscene gestures, we got into a yelling fight on the street and I told him I wanted his entire generation to die.
Some of our other friends say they never do this. One doesn't live in the best neighborhood and is worried she'll get into problems too. Another just wears her earphones everywhere she goes, which for the most part, I now do too.
Sometimes, I feel really good after I let a dirtbag have it. And other times I wonder if all that rage is unhealthy. In all honesty I know that one gringa saying, "Fuck off you dirty old man," doesn't change much in the grand scheme of things. But, not saying anything ever feels wrong!
When we all got to talking about it, I was actually surprised by most of my girlfriends' responses. I assumed that all gringas who know enough Spanish to retaliate, do. Turns out, the ones I know usually don't.
So what are your thoughts on this? To respond, or not to respond, that is the question of the day...
Sunday, August 31, 2008
To Provoke or Not to Provoke
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22 comments:
A very valid question too. Of course, my answer is ambiguous. If you are in a pretty descent neighbourhood with people around that would prevent physical violence then yes, tell him off. Otherwise, ignore and evade.
Well, I am one of those who thinks piropos are harmless (not ALL, but some). I can't say being called "linda" by a random fellow makes me feel enraged although if someone says something sexual than yeah, it's gross.
I also think they are plenty of gringa tourists here helping to perpetuate machismo and the "latin lover" stereotype which just eggs these guys on. In many Latin American countries gringas have the stereotype of being "loose." Sad but true.
I think it is absolutely okay to retaliate. The more clever the retaliation the better but I find that when I try to yell something in Spanish when I am angry it comes out all wrong. I suppose flicking people off can go a long way. I do that sometimes.
It's funny because in Cuba catcalls are a way for the men to hit on girls they are interested in (they always summon you over when they give cat calls) because they are too shy to say anything within a 2 meter radius but I think in other countries these guys wouldn't even know what to do if you went right into their face and said, "What do you want?"
As you mentioned, I'm now jaded (realistic?) enough that I don't take shit from anyone...as long as it's daylight, I'm in a decent area, the person doesn't look too sketchy, etc. Much as I would love to single-handedly show all creeper Chilean men that it is NOT OK to talk to me like that (or to talk to me at all really, you are a stranger, go away), I'm not stupid. I would rather stay angry than get knifed. But on the occasions I have said something, I felt good that I didn't just have to keep my anger inside, slowly rotting my soul away, but instead could get angry, enjoy a little adrenaline rush, and move on.
If the person is in a vehicle, I will flip them off, or my boyfriend will tell them to go straight to hell. I am going to learn something better to yell at them, but I never do anything if they aren't in a vehicle. If they make that kissing face while I am in the subway, I just ignore it. I really feel the need to just bitch them out though. If I wasn't such a pussy, I probably would!
I agree with Reb and Emily, depends on context. One time in the bus from Valpo to Viña, I was sitting in the back row of five seats, looking at the ocean and all of a sudden the guy that had been on the far end of our row was right next to me. I looked down and his hand was just barely touching my leg. I got sooo pissed off. I chewed him out and told him to go sit somewhere else (because I had a big bag and didn't want to move). He moved back to his original seat, a bit further from me. I then arrived at my suegro's house and told her what had happened. She told me that next time, I scream at the guy at the top of my lungs so everyone looks at us and the guy gets embarrassed. I have no problem making a big scene. Unfortunately, ever since she told me that, I haven't had a good chance.
One day I was waiting to get cheese at the cecinería in the supermarket, and there were like 20 other people waiting there too. I look over, and this guy was looking at me with these disgustingly lustful eyes. It was suuper disrespectful. I opened my mouth to echar la foca con cuática (to really chew him out). And he turned around and practically ran out of the supermarket. So that was my big chance. But since than (like a year ago), I haven't had another good chance like that. I still regret that he turned around and ran. Everyone would have been staring at us...it would have been great. The coward.
Wow! Never thought it would happen but for the first time I can't agree 100% with ya, K!...
The thing is you guys are seeing the piropo thing from a GRINGA perspective. Believe me, I get your point and it too used to piss me off when men, strangers, in Mexico used to cat-call me on the street.
But then my mexican genes kick in. First of all, you have to understand that piropos are NOT considered disrespectful. I know, I know, in what way saying "que bien las mueves mamacita" IS NOT disrespectful? But again, however bad this sounds to an american girl this is not disrespectful in latin-american boy language. It's two things:
1. It's a way of acknowledging that you caught his attention, not only because you're beautiful/buenota/pretty but mainly because you're DIFFERENT to anything he's used to seeing in his miserable, dark, poor and limited entourage (why is it the worst cat callers are the "nacos"?)
2. It's a desperate attempt at catching your attention because from the very low social position that he knows he is in respect to you he knows that this is the only way he'll ever be able to enter in contact with a "higher" social category as that which he considers you in.
I'm not going to even pretend that this makes sense. It doesn't, I know and I am NOT justifying the dirty old men who only do it for the kicks. But I tell you, cat-calling more often than not is a social thing, not a sexual one.
I know that any educated, intelligent, young woman from the north can barely tolerate this shit and frankly I can understand the instinct to immediately classify this behavior under the "degrading to women" category.... Because we KNOW better. We know about respect towards each other, and sexual harassment and public embarrassment.
It's just that they don't.
Fned.
P.S. When I finally understood this in my teens I took to handling piropos by putting on my most "answering your pathetic cry for attention isn't worth the shit on the bottom of my shoes because you know what? I AM higher than you and I'm not about to STOOP to the dirty, shitty ground where you gravel in order to answer that" face and completely ignore them. I tell you, you can actually FEEL their frustration.
You know, this is something that really used to piss me off, and occasionally it still does when the piropo is sick enough. I used to give guys the finger all the time or curse at them in English or Spanish or give them a really nasty stare. And I still will on occasion, especially if I'm in a foul mood. But things changed for me a few months back after having to walk through literally hundreds of construction workers on their lunch break at the Costanera Center to get to a class.
At first I really dreaded the trek because of the piropos and stares. But then one day the guys decided to give me a standing ovation. Literally. It was like they just saw a brilliant piece of theatre. Hard as I tried to keep a straight face I just started laughing because it was RIDICULOUS. It was like my pulchritude was some kind of great achievement to be lauded. Absurd. And I didn't even feel attractive--I was in work attire! But after laughing and taking a bow (what else was I supposed to do?) I began thinking about the situation. After the first time, they begun to do it on a regular basis for me. It became our little schtick, and I swear to god, we were all laughing at the ridiculousness of the situation together.
Since this experience, I've been paying more attention to what is actually said to me on the streets. It's usually pretty harmless ("Que hermosa" etc), which I've come to see as lamely amusing. It's just another part of the game. One guy actually said to me once, "Ay, buenas tardes!" (in the "Que linda" tone) and I turned at him, gave him a confused look and said "'Buenas tardes??' En serio?" And we both laughed.
I've completely surprised myself with my new attitude toward piropos, as I usually find myself to be the biggest--and often angriest--feminist in the room, even in the States. I guess I feel in control of the situation now, or part of the game (if you enter into dialogue you find most of the men are not taking themselves too seriously or lack balls completely). And guys don't tend to say super nasty things to me it seems, for whatever reason. Maybe I scare them (or would just like to think so...)
HOWEVER, if a guy sat down next to me and touched my leg I would pull my knife out on him and proceed to scream in his face. That's not part of the game and that would never be funny in my book (neither are obscene comments). Also, if a girl feels like retaliating to whatever comment, it's always in her right, especially if it makes you feel better. I just think it's usually a waste of breath. Chile needs a lot more than a few disgruntled gringas to turn their machismo culture around. And so does the US.
Reb, I think it depends more on my mood than anything else, but let's hope somebody doesn't catch me in a bad mood in a bad neighborhood someday!
Kathleen, agree, "linda," or "hermosa," doesn't make me want to stab someone's eyeballs out with a fork, but nasty comments do. I had no idea it was like that in Cuba though, that's hilarious! Like you said, most Chilean men are so surprised to have any reaction, I can't even imagine what they would do if you actually walked over to them! All talk, no game :P
Emily, let it out, feels good doesn't it?!?
Shannon, for vehicles I guess flipping off is the better response since they most likely won't hear anything you say to them.
Heather, don't you hate when you think of the best response to a situation AFTER it's all said and done and then you don't get another chance to ever put it to use. I am so annoyed when a good comeback comes to me once I'm already three blocks down the street. I can't believe a guy had the never to touch your leg though. I might have pepper sprayed him :/
Fned, maybe I should clarify the kind of piropos I'm talking about...por ejemplo, when a guy says, "le dejaria bien culiada," or makes obscene humping/licking gestures. The problem is that those sort of things which I would consider more along the lines of sexual harassment than anything else, are grouped into the same lump definition, all called piropos here in Chile. But even if we just agree to disagree, I would hate to see our beautiful friendship disintegrate over piropos :)
Anya, I have gotten a standing ovation before too and had the same reaction as you. I just cracked up, I couldn't help but laugh. On a side note...you carry around a knife with you??? WOW.
Do. Yes, you can retaliate and you should.
Although you're not gonna change anything and it's not like the piropero is gonna ever think "oh, someone told me off, so I better stop doing this".
It is a sad part of our (lack of) culture.
Someone has got to take on those idiots.
Now, it bothers you, imagine how it feels when someone does all this to a guy's girlfriend with him next to her. It has happened to me, and to many, and it's common. It happened to me quite a few times with my French girlfriend who is totally foreign looking which I even think put some people off (I think most men usually prefer wolf-whistling at the typical Chilean hottie type, but perhaps I'm wrong here).
This is so sickening that once even some fucking cops said things to my then Chilean girlfriend. I remember it vividly cos it was quite a scene (the "pacos culiaos" part from me -predictably- did not make their day and didn't help too much my relationship).
A met up with a French friend once in Santiago and same happened to her, by one of the pacos of La Moneda. That was just the last straw.
This idiotic behaviour has got to change and Chilean women would never ever retaliate, so if you do it, be aware you'll be the first one ever, and people around you are gonna think you're a witch, or you're having a bad day or simply you're mad not 'enjoying it'.
I can only say that I totally (and respectfully) disagree with Fned. And I fully agree with Emily:
you are a stranger, go away
What's this thing about talking to strangers with no reason?? If someone needs directions, help, etc, then go ahead and talk to others. But if not, why can't people mind their own flippin' business?!
And some of the piropos really make me cringe, I feel so mortified with all that "oh you're my sweet Angel that God sent to me...". Bollocks!!
I have told off so many guys: "chucha que andai caliente weon", is my favourite. I make sure I smile and that I make them feel we're cool. Of course, I'm not, and I just mean to bother them.
And let me tell you this story. We went with that French friend above to Bellavista, her and two other French girls. One would think I was now showing them the wonders of our bohemian life... my arse!. Two German girls sat down at a table beside us. Two idiots sat opposite them, and started staring at them for at least 15 solid minutes, with a pethetic face like "wow, I'm gorgeous, you're gorgeous... let's get together" sort-of-thing.
My friend couldn't take it anymore and she just said somehting like "enough is enough".
The German girls opened their map and after a while they left. The two guys followed them! Pathetic.
I mean it's OK when you go to a pub and make eye contact. For a man, if it is blatantly obvious he's only getting the "I'm not interested" face, it's time to drop it.
Chilean men think that a woman on her own, or two women, having a coffee or whatever, is a sad thing or they are necessarily looking for male company. It is OK for Chileans to bother other people, invade their space or approach others to show their ignorance or that they are some pathetic version of Neruda (the "of beautiful eyes of my sweet angel" type, I hate it more that the downright obscene words). Making remarks about anyone is, apparently, acceptable. They just don't get it that a woman on the public transport or on the street may not be in the mood to hear any feedback on her appearance. But you have surely noted that people can say anything to anyone.
Chilean just wouldn't realise it's stupid and they make fools of themselves. So if you start off this retaliation campaign, it's pretty much yourself against everyone else.
But do it. Just throw an enraged look at them, that would do. No point in starting an argument. Although you can be certain they're gonna say "oh sweetheart you don't look like an angel anymore..." etc.
I would have to say that I know Chilean males who do agree that the piropos are disrespectful. They return to focusing on women as sexual items and nothing else. Yes, they may be harmless..... or are they? Or do they continue a macho society? Do they continue an idea that women are first and foremost sex objects? Do they portray the idea that women should be sexually available to men? Do they play into self esteem and body issues?
I would say yes. They do. Commenting back, although it can fell good, doesn't change the status quo (unless you can embarrass the guy enough that he stops for a tiny bit). Better, have a conversation with women. Talk about how stereotypes and gender roles are assigned. Talk about if they are appropriate. Talk about how piropos falls into machismo. Teach your children that it is wrong. Learn about gender neutral ways to raise kids.
If someone says something truly slimy (like the guy in Ecuador who straight-out asked if I would have sex with him), I let him know what I think. Otherwise, I walk by with a mild look of disgust on my face. In the end, I can't control what they say, but I can control how much of my time I let them take up. If I feel that the piropo is truly sincere and kind-hearted, I might even smile.
Some circumstances, though, call for urgent action. Instead of writing out the whole story of my battle with the security guards near my apartment in Quito, though, I think I'll just write a blog post about it. =)
After having lived in the Dominican Republic, Chile seemed like a breeze in comparison in regard to cat calls. I am around six feet tall and from the US also, I am blond and look super gringa so it is hard to blend in Latin America. Lord knows I've had my blood-is-boiling cat call moments from latin men. I have also been given nice compliments from latin men which were not rude or merely a sexual advance, but just a nice thing to say. At first it was very difficult to sort all of this out and in a language that wasn't native to me. Later I began to realize that I had chosen to live abroad and that I certainly did not need to feel uncomfortable because of it or anything that anyone said to me while abroad, but that I obviously drew a lot of attention because of it and wasn't always sure how to respond. It didn't seem to make sense to take all of the compliments and/or piropos to heart if they were so frequent and it seemed as if the latinas did not even bat an eye when given a piropo. It also didn't make sense to get completely enfuriated every time this happened. The person that it ended up affecting was me and the guy could end up being slightly miffed at my negative reaction, but it seemed he wasn't as knotted up about it as I was. I would leave these encounters feeling frustrated, annoyed and all around in a state of rage and self-rightousness wanting to really show these men that they were completely in the wrong and had been brought up to think that they were kings, when really they were these little insignificant beings. But as I spoke with more Dominican, Central American, Mexican, Chilean and South American men (and women) about the concepts of Machismo, piropos and gender roles I began to realize that this a is cultural/societal norm that has been established and it has its pros and cons. You can't fight city hall, or you can and you will end up beaten and bruised and pissed off every day if you do it with anger, rage and a feeling of cultural superiority (I know, because I felt this way). If you do it with calm in a way that truly can change society you may achieve some long term progress. If you do it with an attitude of "I am better than you and I am a liberated woman so take that and Fuck Off and I hope that you die!" I doubt that any man's response will be "Point taken, I am a changed man, I will never make a lewd comment to any woman, either gringa or chilena again, Thank you for bringing that to my attention and my behavior will be different from now on." Some guys need a slap in the face and I am not saying that it is bad to defend your rights. On the contrary, but I think that are more and less effective ways of dealing with conflict. It is very challenging to pit yourself against an entire societies values, ideas, norms and cultural mores which have been shaped and developed through a long and complex history which one may have less understanding of than those who are native to a place. I applaud your valentia and I certainly think that it sounds as if there have been times when you have been capable of defending yourself in a way that called the action in question to the perps attention (which is more than some people can say if they have felt uncomfortable or as if their rights were being infringed upon) however I wonder if there are alternative methods to the polar extremes of direct confrontation and using vulgar language or completely ignoring the questionable behavior? Any ideas?
I would be one of those whose Spanish is sadly lacking in the retaliation department. However, that happens in English too. SOmeone says something to me and my best response is "Well, yeh? YEH!" Then, five minutes later, I think of the perfect respons. Spanish, not being my first language means the time between incident and perfect response is a little longer like 15 minutes. By that point, Mr. Rico Suave del Piropo has happily, and safely escaped.
I'm chilean, and I hate piropos in the street. If I don't know you, then shut up, even if I look like a top model (of course I don't).
A friend, a boyfriend, a relative can tell me a piropo... that's ok... but a stranger man? And ussually they are not only strangers, they are dirty men and try to make you feel umconfortable because they know there's nothing you can do... even if you shout them back, even if they have to go away because of your screams, they won't change and piropos will continue bothering us...
I totally hate them, totally, 100%... I used to ride my bike, hear them, and plan something against him (stone them, hit them with a secret weapon, have acid spray or I dunno), but of course I don't do a thing... and thing is: you can not... because it can be dangerous... sh**!
Carlos - you need your own blog! Would love to hear more of your perspectives as a Chilean man seeing first-hand some of what gringas experience. Thanks for such a great and supportive comment.
I agree with anonymous that we can't necessarily expect to change society, not should we want to because really, the US has brought McDonald's and bad 80s music to Chile, who are we to claim cultural superiority. Although Clare, you also made a great point that for those of us with more permanent ties to Chile, we can try to help our friends, families and eventually children to see another side of things, a side that I will be honest and say I find better in this case. But if I say something, I definitely don't do so in the hope that I'm changing even that one man, I just do it cause sometimes I'm fucking angry at people thinking they can talk to me without me getting my own two cents in. You said I'm a hottie, I called you a dirty old man, let's call it a tie, forget it and go about our business.
I'd probably just ignore it, but I've never had to deal with anything that bad before. The introvert in me would just try to avoid the situation and headphones sound like the way to go.
Maybe they like the reaction and giving them no reaction gives them no reason to catcall. I'm not sure.
Amongst me and my friends in Mexico the general consensus was just to ignore them.
There were many times when I could not. Whether I had a bad day or they would say or do something that struck a nerve. On those days I would tell them how uneducated they are and how their mother must hate to have a son with such foul manners.
Most of the time, they'd shut the hell up, not expecting a response that's firm and sounds like a disappointed mother.
It's almost like they want you to turn around and say "fuck off you pig". They think it's funny and giggle. I want to smash their heads in for it. But scold them like you are their mother, and you get a different result.
I'm not saying this is guaranteed of course, but it's worth a try!
You gals should really try giving it right back at them. Por ejemplo, when a guy says something nasty and demeaning to you, give it to him right back. Don't curse at him, say something really dirty. I first tried this a few years ago in the States with some construction workers. I said something like, "Oh, yeah? You're looking pretty hot yourself sausage pack!" and then whistled. The guy was shocked and silenced. Hilarious. I'll still do shit like this sometimes when provoked.
Clare, I couldn't agree with you more. Teachers need to be talking about it in schools and the government needs to reform work laws in regard to sexism and sexual harassment as well. Piropos really are a symptom of a much bigger problem.
And Kyle, yes, I do really carry a camping knife with a three inch blade around with me at all times. My "don't fuck with me" attitude couldn't be more serious.
I can see your point girls and my apologies. I guess because I grew up having to put up with that shit for the most part of my life I kindda grew sort of insensitive to piropos.
Fned.
P.S. don't worry Kyle, I grew up in a family where ALL WE DID was agree to disagree! LOL
Emily, Kyle et al, I actually let some steam off writing this article posted just now in my blog.
I saw this comment made by my Bolivan friend in response to her male friend's comment saying she looked gorgeous in a photo on facebook and I thought of you. She wrote:
"gracias amigo por el piropo...."
I have lived too long in a hostile society where any attention from strangers has to be responded to negatively, or ignored. This has developed, for me, due to cases where judges dismiss sexual attacks because the woman responded positively to a comment and therefore 'encouraged' the attack.(What the f***!??!)
It is clear that there are different levels of piropos; the compliments, the sexual comments and the insults.
There are some great suggestions on how to respond to the unwanted comments (cheers for these),
However, I love the idea of compliments! (Maybe because I have been starved of them, living in such a miserable society).
A Chileno friend of mine was dismally confused on a recent trip to Europe because of the lack of compliments. Asking, 'why does no-one want to make someone else feel good?'
This made me think..yeah.. why not?
So what i want to know is... do women in Chile ever compliment men?
Could this contribute to a more equal society?
(although, of course women are often superior anyway.;D)
yeah, i know..naive, but hey.. think about it...
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